Thread: Tucson shooting tragedy - Do you have a firearm for self-defense in your office?

As many of you have heard already, there was a shooting at a Safeway in Tucson where at least 12 people were wounded, including US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, and possibly six were killed. This happened in a public grocery store where an attack by a gunman would be the last thing on anyone's mind.

My question as it relates to our industry is this: Does anyone here have a firearm available for self-defense, either on your person or close at hand in case something like this were to happen at your facility? If yes, are you trained to use it effectively in a defense situation?

Since I'm asking, I'll answer it first. Yes, and yes.

Frankly, Awesome, these things happen all the time somewhere. Stupid is as stupid does, Forrest says. Keeping a gun in the office or on your person is not a good idea, especially in a business setting. To answer your questions, no, not a good idea, yes, you point a gun at me, you will suffer.

Like I say when people call me Weston, which is my given name: "Yall just call me Wes "

Now I'm not in the worst part of town, but there was a recent string of daytime robberies close by, as well as a bomb hoax and like you said, these things happen all the time. I don't think that let's us off the hook to ensure our own safety.

Why do you think it's not a good idea not to carry in a business setting? I can offer reasons why I think it's a good idea, but I'm interested in why you feel otherwise.

Carrying, especially concealed, is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, and requires constant vigilance. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so without professional training and frequent refresher training.

You would also have to make sure you are in compliance with any state or local laws, but I don't think there are any that restrict the carrying of a weapon, even concealed, to a business owner or his designee on company property. Obviously if you aren't the owner you would want to get his or her input first.

We have fire extinguishers and sprinklers on our property to protect us from fires... What do we have in our offices that would protect us from one of these people that would take everything from us and our families?

I'm very interested in your opinion, and thanks for contributing.

Cheers,

Originally Posted by aWESome

Like I say when people call me Weston, which is my given name: "Yall just call me Wes "

Now I'm not in the worst part of town, but there was a recent string of daytime robberies close by, as well as a bomb hoax and like you said, these things happen all the time. I don't think that let's us off the hook to ensure our own safety.

Why do you think it's not a good idea not to carry in a business setting? I can offer reasons why I think it's a good idea, but I'm interested in why you feel otherwise.

Carrying, especially concealed, is a responsibility not to be taken lightly, and requires constant vigilance. I wouldn't recommend anyone to do so without professional training and frequent refresher training.

You would also have to make sure you are in compliance with any state or local laws, but I don't think there are any that restrict the carrying of a weapon, even concealed, to a business owner or his designee on company property. Obviously if you aren't the owner you would want to get his or her input first.

We have fire extinguishers and sprinklers on our property to protect us from fires... What do we have in our offices that would protect us from one of these people that would take everything from us and our families?

I'm very interested in your opinion, and thanks for contributing.

Cheers,

Trained police officers make shooting mistakes all the time. Who pays for their errors? The officer and the municipality that employs them. If a manager were to fire a weapon, while acting in the capacity of and within the scope of their employment, and they injure any party, the facility owner will be sued, period. If a child gains access to a loaded weapon and is killed or injured, who will be sued, the owner for sure. We recently sweated out a trial against a BART police officer that mistakenly pulled a firearm, thinking it was a taser gun and killed a young teen. Yes, the teen was committing a crime, but my point is that in stressful situations, firearm mistakes are made. Do we really want citizens packing heat everywhere they go?

Anyway, do you want your piece falling out when you lift a roll up door or bend over to pick up a piece of paper? Even Tony Soprano doesn't pack a gun unless he is planning to wack someone.

Let me preface with something that I did not make readily apparent, and I only mention it to self-qualify my opinion as a subject matter expert on the topic at hand. I have been a military police officer for 5 years, serving and protecting communities both overseas and at home, during hurricane disaster relief (Katrina, Rita, Gustav, et al) as well as carried out hundreds of combat missions in Iraq. I have trained police forces around the world and consider myself well-versed in the field. I carry everyday, everywhere. I wouldn't know what it would be like not to, which is why I offered this topic for discussion.

Let's compare your first point, which is very relevant in today's society.

Worse case scenario: Someone comes into your property and pulls a gun and commits a robbery or decides to just go on a shooting rampage, and you draw your personal protection weapon and shoot to eliminate the threat from the bad guy, and injure or kill a bystander in the process. Most states (IIRC) will consider any injury or death that occurs during the commission of a felony to be the responsibility of the person who committed the initial felony. Civilly, yes you may face a lawsuit and legal fees defending your case. The situation and amount would vary wildly so I wont hazard a guess.

Now, if the gunman had been allowed to continue his rampage, what would be the financial losses and human loss of life costs to the same business? Would they be greater or less than the previous? Is being sued worse than the continued loss of life of the employees or your customers? I offer these questions to think more deeply about the situation. Personally, if there are ten people in a room and a gunman walks in and kills 2 right off the bat, I am going to respond immediately with lethal force. If I miss and injure or kill someone in the process, as tragic as that may be, I know that I have at least saved the others from the same fate. Is the $500 in the drawer worth killing an armed robber? Everyone on this forum would agree it isn't, but every criminal fiending for drugs or any loony on a rampage would say yes. Some food for thought.

As I said, I wouldn't recommend anyone carry that didn't have training, and that is the number one focus I think at hand. The BART cop story made its rounds in the law enforcement community and unfortunately he was negligent in carrying and an innocent man perished due to it. But just because "trained people" make mistakes too doesn't preclude the requirement for training to those who want to carry, nor should it scare away anyone interested in legitimate defense carrying.

The main difference in average business owner/manager and the cop is that as cops we have a variety of tools to choose from, and lethal and non-lethal. The BART cop chose the wrong tool. Citizens that carry for defense should have just one tool for defense, and when they draw it, it should alway be a life or death decision and should be treated as such. Again it boils down to training.

As far as my carry weapon falling out of my holster, that is virtually impossible considering the types of modern holsters, and using common sense (locked drawers, maintaining positive accountability at all times.) I don't want to squawk like a parrot, but it's a training issue.

I think your argument can be satisfied by my initial point which was training. I would not want citizens packing heat without the proper training. But I wholehearted would want citizens to pack heat if they have been properly trained to do so, and are qualified to do so by law (non-felons, no mental issues, etc.) Every time I hear of a senseless killing during a robbery or home invasion, my first though is if that person had a way of defending themselves, maybe someone wouldn't be missing a son, father, mother, daughter, etc. It gives the average citizen a fighting chance against the criminal element.

Maybe I should re-word my initial question:

1. Do you have a firearm for self defense?

2. Are you trained to properly use it?

My response to the anyone answer yes to #1 and no to #2 would be to get training, ASAP, you can't use a bulldozer effectively until someone teaches you.

Otherwise, if you have a different answer, I'd love to find out why, and what other security measure you have in place to keep something like this from happening on our front.

Again, thank you for you contribution, and for healthy open dialog on the matter

Cheers,

Wes, maybe you should add a poll to your question. I started to answer, but then didn't want to give away my 'secret' so to speak. I like to just warn people up front that they don't want to go up against me, ever! Then let their imaginations wonder why.

I'm sure come the beginning of the week, you'll get more responses, but the poll is just a thought to get more in the way of responses.

P.S. Will you play on my side? I'd rather play with you than against you.

I am not properly trained in the use of firearms, so my answer is no and no. I would never dream of picking up a weapon of any kind to use it without the training in how. I carry a bamboo stick as my main weapon of choice. It may not seem like much, but I do know how to deliver a lethal blow if necessary. Although, I would much rather just use it to disable an assailant.

Which brings up another point...even using a firearm, a lethal shot is not always necessary. Anyone properly trained would have the ability to know the difference between the necessity of shooting to kill and shooting to disarm or disable, and would have the skills necessary to do so. If you don't know how to hit the target where you are aiming, please don't have a firearm.

To answer the questions, yes we have firearms available (though not in the office) and yes we are trained to use them. After 23 years military service some of the training had to take. The reason we don't carry is that the temptation to knee cap some body for being stupid or rude "might" some day become to much. Ok, I exagerated on that... I hope.
We do have other means of protection available to us. The office is loaded with weapons: rest room keys are on foot long sticks, stapler is pretty heavy, pens, locks, etc. We are also trained in Aikido and Karate. Our assistant is a rather big guy at 6'4" 240lbs and he is currently taking jujitsu (whatever the Brazilian style is called). It all helps, and if you keep an eye on what is going on, as well as getting the customers to help watch, it keeps most problems on this order to a minimum. Besides, between all the Marines, cops, border patrol, homeland security agents, and retired military renting here I don't fore see a shooting spree happening any time soon at our place.
But then...

aWESsome--I am very much on your side. I have worked in law enforcement and feel very capible. However, although its sad, I think I would fear the lawsuit vultures more than the robber. I believe everyone should be trained and carry. Years ago there was a cafeteria in texas where a gunman killed 23 people. there were 100 people in the resturant. A ccw holder was there,not armed and saw her parents killed. I use this one because if only 50% of those 100 were armed, and not just one who forgot her gun, 23 people would not be killed, this madman would have got 3-4 and someone would have capped him. Not to mention if everyone was armed, it might not happen at all.
You can't depend on police for your safety, they are never there when you want them, as I am sure as your driving and see infractions you wonder, where are the cops now, safety is your responsibility, so you use defensive driving. Understandably, police want no one carrying a gun but them. But they are reactive, we should be proactive. Too bad for them. Everyone needs defensive tactics of some kind. In florida when tourists were being robbed and killed, they caught a robber and asked, Why only tourists? Robber said "people in florida can carry, we dont want to be shot, just rob, tourists dont carry" . Law makers in florida who were against armed citizens discovered, A law abiding citizen is also law abiding when armed.
Even if people dont shoot distinqueshed expert like me (bragging a little) something would be better than nothing, Just as if someone had a heart attack and tried cpr with out training, that would be better than nothing. However guns instill fear, in owners, in police, and I am sure customers are affected if they knew. Instilling fear in a robber ok, but how do you overcome the fear for everyone else? I know, training, but I could tell you stories of bad cop shooting's all day, and they are supposed to be trained to the max. You have to convince all that a older, overweight, balding self storage manager as I am will most likely be ok in that situtation. Even when I was a cop, I would wonder if I would hesitate so much (never shot anyone) worrying about all the correct criteria, well, you have been trained, you know. At the end of the day, I agree with you.

Originally Posted by gofer1

To answer the questions, yes we have firearms available (though not in the office) and yes we are trained to use them. After 23 years military service some of the training had to take. The reason we don't carry is that the temptation to knee cap some body for being stupid or rude "might" some day become to much. Ok, I exagerated on that... I hope.
We do have other means of protection available to us. The office is loaded with weapons: rest room keys are on foot long sticks, stapler is pretty heavy, pens, locks, etc. We are also trained in Aikido and Karate. Our assistant is a rather big guy at 6'4" 240lbs and he is currently taking jujitsu (whatever the Brazilian style is called). It all helps, and if you keep an eye on what is going on, as well as getting the customers to help watch, it keeps most problems on this order to a minimum. Besides, between all the Marines, cops, border patrol, homeland security agents, and retired military renting here I don't fore see a shooting spree happening any time soon at our place.
But then...

But then, fort hood,texas